Unpacking the Benefits of Independent Wealth Management

WPTV National Bank

Devin: [00:00:29] Hello. My name is Devin Cabel, our VP with NBIN. I am the 

relationship manager and business development manager in the Prairies. I have three 

fellow panelists with me today, each involved in a different capacity. Paul, may I start 

with you to introduce yourself?

Paul: [00:00:49] My name is Paul Harris. I'm a partner and portfolio manager at Harris 

Douglas Asset Management.

Devin: [00:00:55] Thank you. Vipool. How about you? Can you introduce yourself, 

please?

Vipool: [00:01:00] My name is Vipool Desai. I own and operate a compliance business 

that provides an outsourcing service.

Devin: [00:01:09] Thank you. Emily, over to you.

Emily: [00:01:13] Hello. My name is Emily Burt, and I'm executive vice president and 

chair of the board at Cardinal Capital Management. We're a Winnipeg based portfolio 

management firm.

Devin: [00:01:23] Thanks for joining us. Becoming an independent wealth manager, 

starting your own business or contemplating a jump into an independent wealth 

management business is a question that has become more prominent throughout the 

past two years. Advisors across Canada are exploring the opportunities that exist within 

independence for a variety of reasons, and myself in this panel of experts will be diving 

further into this topic. Paul, I'd like to start with you. You founded your own firm, Harris 

Douglas, and as an advisor with experience working in a number of organizations, what 

led to your decision to found your own wealth management firm?

Paul: [00:02:04] So when I first started, I started I started another company prior to this, 

an asset management firm. And for me, when I got involved in the investment 

management industry in the 1990s, I really wanted to, after a while realize that it's 

important. I wanted to start my own firm. So I worked in New York for three years and I 

came back to Toronto and I was kind of in a unique situation where I had enough 

investable assets that I could manage my own money and live off of. But I also had 

enough savings that I could actually start my own business if I wanted to. And I had this 

quandary in my life that said, Do I want to go and work for another asset management 

company? And I felt that that if I made that decision, that would be my kind of work. By 

the way, I was going to live my life for the next sort of 15 or 20 years, or I could take the 

opportunity with this slight window, I had to actually start my own business. And so for 

me, that was the easy decision because I decided to start my own business. I had I met 

a I had a couple of friends of mine that were in the investment business in Toronto that I 

had kind of worked with over the years. And so it was we came together and sort of 

started the company so that it was a much easier decision back then for me because I 

was kind of at this opportune point in my life where I had to make this decision whether 

to go to a more traditional asset manager or start my business. And I had everything 

kind of lined up from a from a wealth point of view that allowed me to do that.

Devin: [00:03:31] Thank you. Vipool, you bring a slightly different perspective because 

you're a consultant that has worked with many early stage independent firms as they're 

being created from your seat. What are you seeing as some of the biggest benefits for 

an individual owning their own firm? And why are they making this shift?

Vipool: [00:03:52] There are a lot of benefits and maybe we can start with money. You 

know, the biggest expense that an advisor has is every time a dollar comes in the 

business, their dealer takes a portion of it. That's the grid. And so in many cases, if you 

compare what you're paying your dealer versus the cost of actually running your own 

business, you'll find your the cost of running your own businesses is lower and in many 

cases significantly lower. So first benefit, of course, is more money in your pocket. 

Second thing to talk about is taxes. You know, we live in an environment where if you 

get a T4A slip, you're at a huge disadvantage. It's very hard to accumulate wealth in that 

kind of environment. It's very hard to pass on wealth to future generations to do tax 

planning, income splitting, estate planning. So you need to have a business and active 

business to have those benefits. And so that's benefit number two. Let's talk about the 

value of your business. At some point, everyone wants to retire or sell their business or 

pass it on to others. And the value of an advisor's business really depends on the 

relationship and the agreement that they have with their dealer. So there are many 

advisors out there that don't really have an understanding with the dealer that when I 

leave, these clients are mine and I can sell this relationship. So for those individuals, 

their life's work is just scattered to the winds. It's it's gone. If you're lucky enough to 

have that arrangement, well, then there's a value that's placed in a book of business, 

and the value is typically one or two times the ongoing fee. Now, if I took that book, if it 

was a substantive book and I put it in a corporation and I called it I called it Vipool's 

Investment Management Inc. The value of that business is significantly more. Or can be 

significantly more. And then as you grow your book, the value of that asset grows. So I 

talked about the importance of passing on wealth to future generations. This is part of it. 

We can also talk about decision making. I mean, if you're an advisor that has a 

substantive book and you've been around for a few years, chances are that you have 

some good ideas when it comes to marketing. For example, you have some ideas in the 

products and services that you want to offer your clients. You have some ideas around 

technology you want to use. And so when you have your own business, you're not 

negotiating with your dealer on whether or not these are great ideas. You get to make 

those ideas yourself. But I think I think the biggest benefit, the one that isn't really 

spoken about is that having your own firm, an independent firm, provides a great deal of 

professional and personal satisfaction. You know, the analogy I like to give is, is pretend 

there's there's someone who comes out of university in their twenties and they want to 

they want to get an apartment. And mum and dad says, you know, we've got a 

basement apartment. Why don't you just read that basement apartment and we'll 

pretend we'll pretend this is your your own living residence and you can put a little sign 

in the door, you know, enter at your own risk free pools or whatever. But the bottom line 

is that you're in mum and Dad's apartment, right? They're aware of people coming and 

going. They're aware of cooking smells or whatever, whatever else is going on. And it 

isn't until you actually move out of that mom and dad's basement apartment and have 

your own apartment or your own house that you truly live in a different environment. So 

I think I think that's the greatest benefit we spend most of our lives working. So if you 

have the opportunity and it's appropriate for you, for everyone, why not operate from 

your own firm?

Devin: [00:07:58] All right. Thank you so much, Emily. You also bring a slightly different 

perspective, but one that's extremely important in the industry. Not all advisors are 

interested in starting their own firm outright, but that doesn't mean that they can't still 

reap the benefits of the independent space. You run a successful independent 

business, Cardinal Capital, and you have teams across the country. What benefits does 

an advisor have when working in the independent space that they may not otherwise?

Emily: [00:08:31] That is a good question, Devin. We have had advisor teams join our 

firm across the country, as you mentioned. And I think what they've really been looking 

for is a way to become business owners themselves. Our firm is 100% employee owned 

and they move from being seen as an employee of firm by their clients because that's 

truly what they are to being a business owner. And many of their clients, many of our 

clients are also business owners, and I think they appreciate that. It's just a different 

mindset and a different way to run your business. Another benefit I think that there is is 

just the flexibility. You're no longer reporting into a manager and a manager as manager 

and a manager, as manager, as manager on the weekly and monthly and quarterly 

sales numbers. You're really you're really a business unto yourself operating in the 

niche that you want, making the decisions that you want. Much like what people said, I 

think that's very true. Being in charge of your own destiny and having the discretion on 

things like marketing and the way that you want to grow your business and the way you 

want to operate. So I think once advisors are sort of at that level where they have the 

expertise that they've earned over the years in this industry, they just have that comfort 

level that maybe I don't need to operate under a big brand name anymore. They 

become known and respected in their community and their clients are there for them, for 

the relationship that they have with you as a person, not the company that you're with. 

And I think once they realize that, they make the switch and never look back. Thank you 

very much for that. Similar to that question, Emily, why is independence good for 

business? What does it provide that perhaps a larger, more traditional corporate wealth 

firm may not? I think first and foremost, it's the fact that you can really say that you're 

putting your clients first, not your shareholders. We're all employee owned and we 

believe that the clients benefit from that. It's a different mindset and much more long 

term focus because we know that the decisions we're making today for Cardinal five 

years from now, it's really all for our clients. The changes we make, whether it's 

operationally or within our investments, it's all client driven. 100% is not profit driven. It's 

not based on a share price. It's it's a big change that puts the advisor and the firm and 

the client's interest all in alignment.

Devin: [00:12:01] Thank you, Paul. I'd like to pose a similar question to you, if I may. 

You have experience in both worlds, being an independent and being an employee of a 

more traditional institution. What are the key differences that you see?

Paul: [00:12:17] You know, when I first started off at TDS management, it was a 

different world because TDS management was very small back then, but the industry 

was growing very rapidly. And so as an employee or a portfolio manager, TDS 

management, at that time you were you were allowed to do many different things. So I 

worked in fixed income and I did corporate research and high yield debt research, and 

we invested in international bonds. And I was able to move from the fixed income side 

to the equity side. And I think today in a traditional firm, they virtualize you pretty quickly. 

So you just do credit research or you do high yield debt research, or if you're on the 

debt side, would be very hard to move to the equity side. And so from from that 

perspective, I think the industry has changed a lot since I was there. But at a big firm, 

you do you do learn a lot of things. And I was able to become, I think from an 

investment perspective, I became much more well rounded as opposed to probably 

today where people tend to be, oh, I know utilities very well and things like that. So 

that's one thing. But but you just do investments, right? And when you move to an 

independent firm like we did originally, there were many things that I just had to learn. 

Whether people mentioned technology while you somebody did all our technology for 

us. We had to figure out all that. We had to figure out marketing while somebody did our 

marketing and we just kind of presented it. And so the first time we actually did a 

marketing presentation to our accountant, he basically fell asleep. And then you 

realized, Oh my God, well, I got to change how I do all this stuff, right? So so it's also 

more about so you wear many hats. And I think from my perspective, that was always 

very interesting because I learned a lot. And it's one thing to analyze a company and 

understand how that company runs. It's another thing to run a business. And so for me, 

there is these all these other issues that you had to compliance became a big thing, you 

know, and compliance has become very big these days, right? I mean, our ISP and our 

contract was eight pages long. That was 45 pages long. I used to be able to read it to 

my client very quickly. Now I just say, here it is. You better go read it. Right, because I 

can't decipher this whole stuff. So so the that's changed. But, you know, there are a lot 

of little things that I learned and my colleagues learned, and we had to get better at 

more than the investment side. The investment side was always easy for us in many 

ways. Whether you had good performance or bad performance, that's not the issue. But 

analyzing a company, analyzing debt, investing in those aspects were always the easy 

part. The hard part was running a business and dealing with employees and all that 

stuff, although they were if those are, they're very interesting to do. And and I think that 

and I really enjoyed that. And that's what I actually enjoy about our business because I 

think it's not just about investing, it's more about these other things. And as Emily 

mentioned, it's also, you know, you have to think about the client and how you help 

them. And one of the things I think is very different about being a TDS and 

management. I don't know who I'm helping, to be honest with you. I didn't. I just my 

portfolio was shoved under my door. I looked at it, I made my decisions, I went on with 

my life. But today I actually meet people and speak to them and talk to them and 

understand their needs for their future. And how do I help them with that? Through 

asset allocation, through the investment process, through other financial planning and 

all that stuff. So it's much more it's you know, I didn't come from a traditional advisor 

background where they would probably had a much bigger relationship with a client. 

Mine was much more institutional. And so it was it's really important, I feel and what I 

love about this job is that I get to help people with their future and the investment side. 

And I think that the problem with. Our businesses, people will probably spend more time 

thinking about the color of their car than their investment portfolio. They just don't like 

doing that. So it's nice to be able to discuss it with them in a healthy way that helps 

them achieve their goals.

Devin: [00:16:13] Thank you. Another question for you, Paul. Prior to founding your 

business, what was the sentiment on the street for those wanting to start an 

independent firm? What types of stories had you heard?

Paul: [00:16:26] You know, I think when I started when we started our firm originally, I 

think people were very helpful. And I think that especially on the people on the sell side, 

which wanted to start a business because you'd give them commissions and stuff like 

that. Right. So, you know, I think that we were most people were very helpful. I think we 

settled on in and many of the crisis and all those other things. So that was a very easy 

decision for us. But but I think that even from that perspective, Nubbin was very helpful 

for us to get us going and help us with the process. I think that we what we did right, if I 

can, is that we actually met with a lot of people who ran independent businesses. So we 

were able to get a lot of good advice initially when we started our company. So we didn't 

sort of go in. Somebody said, Oh, well, why do you want to do mutual funds or mutual 

fund business to private client? So things like that really helped our grow our business 

and not kind of put our put our foot in the mud. So we were able to actually set up the 

business in a very effective way. We didn't have a splashy office. We worked from 

originally from my basement. You know, things like that made a lot of sense for us at the 

time and it worked really well. So I think most people, I would say, were very helpful. 

You know, I didn't know they didn't know if we were going to be successful or not. That's 

very different. But they gave us very good advice. So make sure you have 3 to 4 years 

of money that you can live off of and things like that that were simple things like, you 

know, if somebody tells you they're going to give you $1,000,000, they're lying to you. 

They're going to give you 250. So you were never if somebody said they were going to 

give you $1,000,000, you always say you put it down to 50. And that's actually actually 

what happened. They never gave you $1,000,000. So it was good because we'd spoken 

to people that started their businesses. And so we were we didn't speak to a mutual 

fund company. We've been to private client businesses, and they were very helpful with 

all that sort of kind of thinking about the business. So for me, I think everybody it wasn't 

it was never the issue about of you're just don't go do this and you're crazy. It was more 

about, how can I help you? And here you should go speak to these people because 

they started a business and there have been successful, so you should learn from them. 

So I think that they were I didn't find anybody very negative. Like I said, I don't you don't 

know. They didn't think they didn't know if they were going to be successful or not. But 

they were very happy to help you in every aspect, from buy in to the banking 

relationships to people on brokerage firms like we had dealt with, because we all came 

from kind of institutional backgrounds. We had all these relationships, we got free 

research, you know, things like that. They were very helpful with. So there was never 

this kind of thing, Oh, I can't help you. I'm sorry. So I found it a very good experience 

actually.

Devin: [00:19:13] Vipool, from your perspective, what are some of the items you see 

consistently among early stage firms that are successful? And what are the traps that 

you think should be avoided in your view?

Vipool: [00:19:26] Absolutely. So a lot has changed since the nineties and I think that 

there is a lot more service providers out there that can help you start your search, your 

business, help you along. And intellectually creating your own firm is not difficult. I can I 

can write it down on a piece of paper and you can understand it. The difference 

between success and failure is really the mindset that the advisor brings to this process. 

And I think Paul touched on it somewhat. You know, you have to switch from a sales 

rep mindset or advisor mindset to one of an operator. So what does that mean? Well, 

first of all, it means picking up on Paul's point, which he made very, very well, is you 

have to be interested in things that you previously considered unimportant. Right? So 

you have to be interested in cybersecurity. For your business, you have to be interested 

in compliance. What is your compliance manual look like? What's your forms? What's 

the onboarding process? You have to pay attention to your bookkeeper. You have to be 

interested in all sorts of topics. So number one is if an advisor is really focused on 

saying, My job is to find clients and my job is just to manage my money and you do 

everything else, it's not going to work because you can't have your own home and not 

mow the lawn and fix the roof and make sure things are operating. The second thing is 

you have to be able to take setbacks. You know, not nothing is a straight line and 

there's going to be disappointments and there's going to be setbacks. When you run 

your own business temporarily, you know, you might have delays in your registration, 

you might have a technology issue. Maybe the commission walks in right at the time 

you're doing your era and audit and maybe a key employee quits on you. These are 

these are blips. These are illusions, just like how the market has swings. We have ups 

and downs, but long term, the market goes up in the same way. You're going to have to 

be able to withstand operational personnel and other glitches. So it's not for everyone, 

but for the folks that are ready for it. It's it's an amazing opportunity. It's a place to be.

Devin: [00:21:54] Did you also map out what an advisor needs to start your own 

advisory firms too.

Vipool: [00:22:00] Start a business? Yeah. So an advisor should think of their dealer as 

being a super service provider. Right. So your dealer is not an employee or any other 

sort of structure. What they are is a provider of the services you need to run your 

business. Right? So what do we need? We need a back office so we can settle trades 

and we can do client reporting and issue tax receipts. You need some technology, you 

need a compliance department, you need an accounting department or a bookkeeper. 

You need maybe an I.T. department. So the process is really identifying what are those 

key services that my current super service provider is providing? And how can I 

replicate that in my own firm? So that's really the thought process.

Devin: [00:22:54] Emily, on that note, I'm curious to know what you would say if 

someone told you they were going to transition to an independent business or found 

their own firm. What would you say and how would you advise them?

Emily: [00:23:07] Yeah, I'm happy to answer that one, Devin. First, I would advise to 

stick to your niche. Stick to a niche. Do one thing. Do it well. There's a Bruce Lee quote 

where he said he doesn't fear the man that's practiced 10,000 kicks one time. He fears 

the man who's practiced one kick 10,000 times. And I think that's really true. As a small, 

independent firm, you can't be everything to everyone. Just do one thing and do it really 

well and hold that over the years and the referrals from the clients that appreciate you 

for that will follow. I think that's that's hugely important. The other thing I would say is to 

find the right people to build the business with you. It's not for everyone. It's not for the 

faint of heart. I think you need to find people that thrive dealing with change and growth, 

and that is not everyone. But if you find the right people to go for that ride with you, then 

I think you'll be in good company.

Devin: [00:24:12] All right. Another question for you Emily. Is having an independent 

advisor, good for clients doesn't have an impact either way. How does that play into the 

decision to make the jump to independence?

Emily: [00:24:27] Yeah, I think I think for clients, you know, I go back to something that 

my father mentioned because my father actually is the founder of Cardinal. 30 years 

ago, one reason why he started the firm, because he had been similar to Paul, his 

background was as an institutional portfolio manager. And any time he spoken with 

neighbors or anyone that he met, they were really focused around what product they 

were in and it was always changing. They're in and out of the latest trend, the latest fad. 

And he always felt their frustration, and he realized that an individual retail investor was 

not looking at their investments. The way that an institution is an institution. They come 

up with an investment policy statement. They select an investment approach or a style 

that suits their needs, and that's what they stick to for the long term. They're not in and 

out of new styles and new things, and that way a portfolio manager can hone their 

expertise in a certain style or niche and do that one thing really, really well. So I do think 

clients are better served by getting out of the product based solutions and moving to an 

investment style that they can understand over time. They get it. They're much less 

focused on what they own. Instead, it's more why they're invested the way that they are. 

They get a lot more comfort in it and they can stick to it, and I think that serves clients in 

the long run.

Devin: [00:26:27] Great. Paul, if someone told you that they wanted to start their own 

firm, what would you say?

Paul: [00:26:34] I mean, I think it's a great thing to do for many of the reasons that 

people already spoke about, about the independence you get that you have a great deal 

of freedom with it as well that comes with doing that decision. I mean, I think the 

problem is that for me is that when people who are investment people start a firm and 

investment people, they all think they're investment gurus and they're probably average 

gurus, but they they actually have to think about all these other things that they have to 

do. And and and I think the problem with the investment world today, it's just not about 

investments anymore. It's about wealth management. And we need and like our firm 

thinks about it more holistically, right? Harris Douglas thinks about financial planning. 

He thinks about tax accounting. It thinks about wills and powers, attorneys, insurance. 

So you have to bring all those things together, I think, in today's world to help a person 

with their wealth, it can't be, Oh, I'm just great at investing. You're probably not. And I 

think that's what you have to. So you have to think about it from a from from that 

perspective, from a wealth management perspective far more holistically than I when I 

started off originally. That's one thing. The other thing is that I think that the advice I'd 

give somebody is that you also have to think about, as people mentioned, the fact that 

there's somebody else doing all this stuff for you and you think that you're great, but you 

don't have you have to do all this other stuff, right? And so the world we live in today 

allows you to do that. So compliance, you don't have to do all that stuff yourself. You 

can farm that out. So you should figure out what you can do with how you use 

technology to to enhance your ability to deal with clients, but also to do your other parts 

of your job. You know, looking at when you look at compliance, can you pass that on to 

somebody? But when you're talking about the custodian aspect of all those sort of 

things and and portfolio management systems, etc., so there are people you can use 

and you should use them. I think the traditional what I would say is don't just go hire 

people because that's probably the worst thing to do and you end up managing people. 

And that's a hard thing actually. You know, I never came from a management managing 

that wasn't my background and so it's very difficult, right? So, so I think that you should 

use these other aspects to figure out your business. And then when you get to a level 

where you feel you need to add on somebody that can add value to your business, 

that's important. But to bring in somebody right away to say, I'm going to go get this 

person to do compliance. And, you know, because I just want to do investing is just the 

wrong thing to do. And I do think you have to think about it more holistically today than 

you ever had to do before. It's just not it's just not an investment business anymore. It's 

a wealth management business. And you're not helping people if you're just doing 

investing as far as I could, that's my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, you're not helping 

people. You really need to. People really need a help with a lot of this stuff. And we as 

investment professionals need to think about it differently and help people with their 

future. You know, when I grew up in working at TD or TD Bank, there was a pension 

plan there that you could join and those days are all gone. And so you really need to 

help people be able to. And they were living longer, right? You know, years ago. You 

have to take out 7.28% from your rrif now it's 5.28%. They're probably going to drop that 

number over the next little while because people are living longer. So we we need to 

think about our businesses differently and more holistically as opposed to just saying, 

I'm an investment person and that's all I want to do because that's just not enough 

anymore.

Devin: [00:30:07] Right. If you could go back, Paul, and speak to yourself in the 

moment that you decided to go independent, what would you say? Is there anything you 

wish you had known then?

Paul: [00:30:19] It's a good question. I think the issue for me was that is that you really 

have to we spoke to so many people before we even went down this path. So there 

weren't too many things that were, you know, that kind of surprised us in many ways, 

right? So we put all of us there were three partners. We all put aside money to live our 

life for three years. And we basically started taking a salary after two. So we were so we 

put all this out. We realized that people are telling you something, but they're not going 

to give you as much money. We add all those things. And just to be clear that in 2003, a 

lot of things were easier to do. Getting registered was easier, getting compliance with 

easier. Your contract, like I said, was easy to do. All those things were a lot simpler 

when I started. And so and I think so it's slightly harder today with all those things. As 

people mentioned, they may getting registered, may take you an extra three or four 

months in just because of some they're clogged up at the OSC. Right. So I think there's 

a lot of other things that that are happening today which make it tougher for people to 

go independent. But I do think that there was nothing really that we were kind of 

shocked by when. We did that. We were we plotted along a little bit, but we were not 

shocked by things that came along because we had spoken to so many people who had 

become independent already, and they gave us really good advice. And I think that, you 

know, and I think things like the Portfolio Management Association of Canada, those 

things really help young people starting out in the industry, helps them with their 

business. Right. And and I think that those are and when I advise people, I always tell 

them, join, join, pack, because they give you a lot of things, especially as a small firm. 

So I think there are a lot of things that are in place today that help managers, people go 

independent. But I was never really shocked by anything that happened, and it took us 

a lot, funnily enough, because we had done those things and we started getting paid a 

lot quicker from our from our business. So it was for us, it worked out really well. And I 

think that but I do think that you you the one thing I would say is bringing in assets is a 

lot, at least for us. It was a lot tougher initially than you think because we didn't have 

that. We didn't come from an advisor background. We all came from this institutional 

background. That was maybe that was the one shock. I would say, oh, why don't you 

why don't you give me recognize me? Look, I have this performance and all these other 

things, right? So but when you work at TD Asset Management, you weren't a brand 

manager, you were TD Asset Management, whereas people who worked at a lot of 

independent firms had a store manager sort of effect. So I think that's one thing, if I 

would say that kind of people didn't quite understand that we'd been doing this for ten 

years and I didn't know you. Right?

Devin: [00:33:14] So thank you. Vipool, what would you say to an advisor that would 

like to consider independence but is concerned about the unknown aspects of starting 

their business?

Vipool: [00:33:27] Absolutely. So the greatest source of fear is lack of knowledge. 

Right? Once you know something, then it's easier to take action. So whenever we talk 

to folks about independence, the first thing I like to do is, is do the numbers. How much 

are you making now pre-tax? When are you going to make going forward? Does it make 

sense financially? We also like to talk to them about timelines, maybe help them sketch 

out a timeline. So I guess what I'm saying is that you need to visualize your business, as

Paul has indicated somewhat, you need to visualize your business, right. You need to 

visualize dive you're going to take before you jump off that diving board. And so that 

really is a process of planning, running the numbers, interviewing key service providers, 

maybe talking to other firms that have made the leap and understanding at a very 

general level what's involved, what the risks are and what you need to do. You're never 

going to perfectly plan. I mean, if you're someone that wants to plan everything to to 

perfection, then it's not going to happen because you're going to have to make that leap 

off the diving board at some point. But you want to make sure that you understand at a 

very general level what's what's involved. Once you've done your research and you 

work with people that can help you through that, you're going to have one or two 

decisions. And they're both great decisions. One decision is, I don't want to do this. It's 

just a lot of hassle and it's going to be very upsetting. I just want to earn my income, 

which is decent enough and I just want to live my life. And that's a great decision 

because you don't want to embark on your own firm if you have any uncertainty. And 

sometimes when I'm talking to potential clients, we actually try and talk them out of it 

because I know six months down the road they're going to be very upset if they're not 

100% committed. But for those folks who have what it takes, who have that basic desire 

and can understand what's involved, getting that knowledge dissipates the fear, and 

from there you can take action.

Devin: [00:35:38] Thank you Emily, Paul, Vipool. Thank you for sharing your 

perspectives.

Emily: [00:35:44] Thank you Devin.

Vipool: [00:35:44] Thank you, Devin. 

Paul: [00:35:45] It's my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

Devin: [00:35:48] There's many advisors out there wondering where to begin and your 

insights have provided some great guidance for them. And I thank you again.